01:59:27 esomark: the alarm worked 01:59:27 01:59:29 i am not fucked 02:22:58 hi guys 02:28:17 is esomark a guy (i know i already asked but i forgot the answer) 02:28:17 03:01:17 Good morning (from my time zone) esomark 03:01:17 superstaranova has 03:01:31 ...died. I'm sorry to break the news so abruptly. 03:03:40 I wonder how the hell dimethylmercury can slip through latex gloves 03:04:17 Like a single drop can easily get through and make the next and last six months of your life a living hell 03:04:53 (Obviously it has mercury in it and there's a reason why old-style mercury thermometers are banned in some places but how the hell does it sneak through latex) 03:04:59 Hehe #esolanging -> #science 03:05:04 (or ##science idk) 03:05:48 Skibidi quine 03:07:52 Why the FUCK does dark mode break everything 03:08:12 Looking at [[Esolang:User:NeurosamaLover]]'s userpage with dark mode I can't read anything because the text is all white for some reason 03:08:29 Same thing goes with infobox proglang, in dark mode it's still white but the text is also white so I have to Ctrl + A 03:11:18 Also YouTube made the Skip Ad button smaller on mobile 03:11:47 Not sure why, other than the fact that maybe some people (including yours truly) always seem to skip ads the moment the magical button appears 03:16:30 esomark is a skibidi toilet 03:16:30 03:16:42 hi KaleidoscopeFive 03:21:35 Hi de67_ 03:21:50 I removed the color from esolangingbot because it keeps breaking the logs 03:22:11 ok 03:22:30 i inventes a new notation for combinatorical esolangs 03:22:39 the evil postfix notation 03:22:53 xy~ applies x to y 03:22:58 what differentiates evil postfix from regular postfix 03:23:22 PkmnQ: that its evil 03:23:38 de67_: alrighty 03:23:46 uwu~~ 03:23:54 (that's a postfix combinator expression) 03:24:11 KaleidoscopeFive: i already regret inventing it 03:24:24 owo~~ and twt~~ exist now 03:24:56 i used tilde cuz i love tilde alot 03:25:15 Tilde is cool tho 03:25:55 [[Draft:1-866-025-4037]] https://esolanging.wiki/mediawiki/index.php?diff=975 * Dragoneater67 * (+37) * /* Candidate 2 */ elaborate 03:26:27 de67_: i thought that was why you invented it 03:27:25 hm 03:27:34 is psi powerful enough? 03:28:20 x(yz)(yw) is quite convincing to me 03:30:51 Wtf 03:31:17 Why the hell does ϕ (lowercase phi) look like uppercase phi 03:31:25 Sometimes 03:31:31 And other times it looks like real lowercase phi 03:31:33 Wtf 03:31:42 ϕ 03:31:42 Wtf 03:32:00 [[Draft:1-866-025-4037]] https://esolanging.wiki/mediawiki/index.php?diff=976 M * Dragoneater67 * (0) * /* Candidate 2 */ fix order 03:32:08 Ohh 03:32:12 There's two lowercase phis 03:33:27 that got me thinking about ΙΧΘΥΣ again 03:33:29 [[Draft:1-866-025-4037]] https://esolanging.wiki/mediawiki/index.php?diff=977 * Dragoneater67 * (+2) * /* Candidate 2 */ use the actual ψ 03:33:42 i don't have much in terms of thinking about the actual language 03:33:51 but about the article, it definitely deserves some clarification 03:34:03 ϕ <- closed phi btw 03:34:05 like the main conceit of the language is mentioned offhandedly twice in ways that are hard to miss 03:34:21 But it only does that in a monospace font, in non-monospace fonts it looks like the lowercase phi I know 03:34:46 on my client it looks open if i'm thinking of what "closed" means correctly 03:35:20 "A statement definition is removed from storage if the Deadfish 'overflow' condition is triggered while reading from its definition. Only the symbol definition is removed, copies currently being read can continue execution." 03:35:34 From my web browser it looks like the open phi, but in monospace fonts it looks like the null set symbol 03:35:38 Or uppercase phi 03:35:54 that's the main conceit of ΙΧΘΥΣ and it blends with the rest of the bullet-point list which states mostly trivial stuff 03:36:17 ɸφ 03:36:26 the page could really use some rewriting 03:36:27 2 lowercase phi's? 03:36:29 They look ever so slightly different in the Microsoft terminal font 03:37:03 I'm using Φ (uppercase phi) then because this is a brainfuck 03:38:54 what are you using it for btw? 03:39:05 UGHHHH WHY THE FUCK DO FONTS DO THIS 03:39:19 KaleidoscopeFive: it is probably a good idea to find better fonts 03:40:04 PkmnQ: MediaWiki and Micro$lop both use monospace fonts that make φ straight and closed but my browser's non-monospace fonts (including MediaWiki) display it as loopy and open 03:40:32 i think that the φ is the correct lowercase phi 03:40:43 the other lowercase phi is 'old-fashioned' 03:41:13 for me ϕ <- open, φ <- closed 03:41:20 𝜙 03:41:22 so seeing " ϕ <- closed phi btw" was quite a message 03:41:48 ∅ <- empty set 03:41:52 Cascadia Code's fault 03:42:05 (at least that's what my browser told me Microsoft's terminals use) 03:42:13 Ø 03:42:20 PkmnQ: for me its the opposite 03:42:33 so KaleidoscopeFive's message makes sense to me 03:42:50 This is a brainfuck 03:42:50 de67_: whatever font this is must just be cursed then 03:43:03 This is genuinely a multibrainfuck 03:43:04 KaleidoscopeFive: just use φ 03:43:24 What unicode codepoint 03:43:31 ok something's very fucked it's displaying two different ways on the same browser 03:44:11 PkmnQ: That's what I'm saying 03:44:29 both of the fonts are supposed to be sans-serif though 03:44:44 ɸ <- surely this displays as closed for everyone right 03:44:48 MediaWiki's monospace font displays it as the open loopy phi (the one I know well) and the non-monospace font displays it as the straight vertical thin null set 03:44:54 PkmnQ: ye 03:44:56 PkmnQ: That's definitely closed in Cascadia Code 03:45:04 (or whatever font this is) 03:45:27 ᵠ <- "Modifier Letter Small Greek Phi", ᶲ <- "Modifier Letter Small Phi" 03:45:30 what does this mean 03:45:33 What if I use ф instead? 03:45:34 PkmnQ: btw is psi powerful enuff? 03:45:39 KaleidoscopeFive: its closed it seems 03:45:52 de67_: i have no idea 03:45:52 Surely no one will notice the difference between real phi and ф phi 03:46:00 Or "ef" 03:46:11 KaleidoscopeFive: ф 03:46:18 ф = 1.618... 03:46:19 i'd expect it to be about as powerful as the phoenix bird but also one of them is much terser to describe in SK so i have no clue 03:46:21 its a lil bit differe t 03:46:27 Shit I'm using the phoenix bird 03:46:27 and may confuse some people 03:46:29 at this point just use the empty set 03:46:31 Lmao 03:46:53 i know, what about this for phi: 𖩇 03:47:03 U+16A47 Mro Letter Phi 03:47:09 what about this: ph 03:47:18 INteresting "phI" ya got there 03:47:21 de67_: yes do it the metamath way 03:47:35 PkmnQ: MEtamaTH 03:47:50 Do we really need cancellative combinators 03:47:56 KaleidoscopeFive: no 03:48:15 but that would require you to have some way to deal with the garbage 03:48:28 de67_: Garbage collector! 03:48:29 (like Crazy J) 03:48:38 KaleidoscopeFive: no, not garbage collector 03:49:22 you need a rug to sweep all the garbage under 03:49:27 and for crazy J that's EOF 03:50:46 Unfortunately you can't just pretend the garbage doesn't exist since I think \x.\y.x y is different from \x.\y.x so I think cancellative combinators are training wheels for until one discovers the enlightenment of aristocratic bases like IJ 03:50:56 (and where to hide the garbage) 03:53:10 Θ looks really funny (as a combinator not as a letter like phi) 03:53:27 Θx = x(Θ x) 03:53:33 Θ x = x(Θ x) 03:53:59 it's allegedly useful 03:54:13 (it is actually useful but i don't use it) 03:54:22 (i much prefer mockingbird) 03:54:30 I wonder if it's useful with or without a cancellative combinator like K 03:54:52 im atill thinking about ÊMK' basis 03:54:59 i think it's most useful with a cancellative combinator 03:55:02 it looks like it could be powerful 03:55:07 but it's probably possible to use it without somehow 03:55:13 de67_: E^MK' or Θ? 03:55:21 idk i'm no Blashyrkh i don't have exprience with Crazy J 03:55:29 i'm no aristocrat 03:55:41 KaleidoscopeFive: idk 03:56:00 I wonder how in the everloving fuck Blashyrkh finds long expressions very fast 03:56:05 ӨI could be interesting too 03:56:18 Sane Ө 03:56:28 that wasnt a real phi btw 03:56:44 de67: i don't think so (that's Θ right) 03:57:57 ΘI and ΘΘ are just infinite loops 03:58:18 oh 03:58:31 whatabout ӨÊ 03:58:37 +K' 03:58:58 +I 03:58:59 i like pretending Ê doesn't exist so i don't know 04:01:42 Ê is the reason i could implement M_2 in ÊMK' basis 04:01:49 i love bald eagles 04:05:46 hm, im pretty happy with candidate 2, i just need to figure out I/O 04:06:06 and then i may release it into esolang wiki 04:07:00 [[Draft:Dimethylmercury]] https://esolanging.wiki/mediawiki/index.php?diff=978 * AnalysisOfVariance * (+1186) * /* Candidate 5 */ I hate this basis, NEXT! 04:10:54 found the owl while trying to discover the kite 04:12:35 KaleidoscopeFive: can i adopt candidate 5 since you decided to disown it? 04:13:31 Sure 04:13:52 This kinda feels like how Russia sold Alaska to the United States lmao 04:13:58 But you can take it I'd rather work with Candidate 6 04:14:10 Candidate 6 has a black hole combinator discovered 04:15:22 i love candidate 2 too much 04:15:30 [[User:Yayimhere/Drafts]] https://esolanging.wiki/mediawiki/index.php?diff=979 * Yayimhere * (+5) 04:15:31 so candidate 2 and 3 will be separate languages 04:15:48 esolangingbot: its 6am for yayimhere btw 04:16:05 utc+2? 04:16:09 PkmnQ: yep 04:16:14 hi! 04:16:18 Hello 04:16:23 de67_ in fact, pye 04:16:24 de67_: also does that mean you're going to name them 1-866-025-4037 and 1-866-025-4038 04:16:24 yayimheretoo: hi 04:16:41 what's a pye 04:16:53 PkmnQ: PsiK' basis will be its own esolang, called PsiK' 04:16:55 kaleidoscopefive: hi! havent seen you bbefore 04:17:05 yayimheretoo: you have seen him before 04:17:07 pkmnq: the derivative of yep, yep' 04:17:08 yayimheretoo: I'm just raiseafloppafan/floppadiskdrive 04:17:15 I like this name 04:17:16 dammit! 04:17:18 lmao 04:17:31 yep' = pye 04:17:37 I still need to finish this dam language 04:19:33 could I get some help from yall, im currently stuck on something 04:20:49 I somehow found S in KфΘ 04:20:56 thats great 04:21:06 (I was trying to find lark and somehow ended up at S) 04:21:23 lmao 04:21:39 KaleidoscopeFive: wait you have S and K 04:21:45 oh crap 04:21:54 ha! 04:21:58 KaleidoscopeFive: congratulation 04:22:42 wait I think I actually remember constructing S from Kф back when Haskell was a programming language I actually knew how to use 04:22:52 I just knew ф as "on" back then 04:24:18 [[Draft:1-866-025-4037]] https://esolanging.wiki/mediawiki/index.php?diff=980 * Dragoneater67 * (+283) * /* Overview */ idk, io 04:25:09 is my io good? 04:25:13 or does it suck? 04:25:21 or should i delete the draft entirely? 04:25:28 and set my house on fire 04:25:34 and get enlightened by god 04:25:35 [[Draft:Dimethylmercury]] https://esolanging.wiki/mediawiki/index.php?diff=981 * AnalysisOfVariance * (+540) * /* Candidate 6 */ How the hell did I find S 04:25:40 and build an os from scratch 04:25:50 and die from stage 4 bone cancer 04:25:52 hmm how would `,` not take any arguments 04:26:03 Make it take something in 04:26:04 oh wait is it just an in-place replacement 04:26:09 oh ok 04:26:10 PkmnQ: ye 04:26:38 lemme fix that by making it take some input and discard it 04:26:40 and i assume . just returns its argument regardless of whether or not it's a church numeral or not 04:27:00 honestly , without arguments could work but having it take one is definitely cleaner 04:27:17 [[Draft:1-866-025-4037]] https://esolanging.wiki/mediawiki/index.php?diff=982 * Dragoneater67 * (+8) * /* Candidate 2 */ make it more "useful" 04:27:59 [[Draft:1-866-025-4037]] https://esolanging.wiki/mediawiki/index.php?diff=983 * Dragoneater67 * (+39) * /* Candidate 2 */ clarify 04:28:30 is the io good now? 04:29:42 `,` is still cursed in a way that i won't explain but i would call that a good thing actually 04:29:51 PkmnQ: alrighty 04:37:59 [[Draft:Dimethylmercury]] https://esolanging.wiki/mediawiki/index.php?diff=984 * AnalysisOfVariance * (+658) * /* Candidate 6 */ wasted 7 minutes finding a kestrel 04:38:02 de67_: yay new language 04:38:40 its just candidate 2 with io 04:38:47 i was kinda impatient 04:38:52 lmao 04:38:55 but i think its quite ready 04:39:03 Yea! 04:39:05 ALSSO 04:39:11 yayimheretoo: ? 04:39:15 guys I beg u I need some help on this one thing rn 04:39:31 yayimheretoo: what thing 04:39:39 de67_ to say in short 04:40:21 I have these types, notated as (N,F) a number and a function(theres a set number of functions), and I need a way to combine two different types in a way that is ordered, and always returns a unique result 04:40:42 a number N is in (X,F) if X/N or N/X is integer, and F(N)=X 04:41:18 bbut idk how to do that 04:42:25 so anybody wanna help me please? 04:42:49 hm 04:54:33 [[JavaScript]] https://esolanging.wiki/mediawiki/index.php?diff=985 N * AnalysisOfVariance * (+1247) * article for a '''VERY''' important esolang ;D 04:54:45 [[Special:Log/delete]] * AnalysisOfVariance deleted page [[JavaScript]] (Too esoteric) 04:55:58 [[Special:Log/delete]] * Dragoneater67 undeleted page [[JavaScript]] (nothing is esoteric at our place) 04:56:29 [[Special:Log/delete]] * Dragoneater67 deleted page [[JavaScript]] (i am so sorry for undeleting this monstrocity) 04:58:22 Which is worse, JavaScript or PHP: Hypertext Processor 05:00:11 [[Polynomix]] https://esolanging.wiki/mediawiki/index.php?diff=986 * AnalysisOfVariance * (+215) * categorization 05:00:32 i'm gonna be honest ever since i saw https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/124046 i've been more afraid of Perl than i ever could be of JavaScript 05:00:54 i don't know what dark magic perl has that makes that possible and i don't want to know 05:01:13 PkmnQ: Wasn't there an experiment that showed over 90% of paint splatters were recognized by an OCR model or something as valid Perl code? 05:01:14 KaleidoscopeFive: both php and js have brought more harm than benefit 05:01:34 kaleidoscope: HAH! 05:01:37 dammit 05:01:52 kaleidoscopefive, thas pretty funny 05:01:53 lol 05:02:16 Random ais523 encounter 05:03:19 what just ahopen 05:03:30 where ais523 05:04:00 From the link PkmnQ sent: "As @ais523 points out, SKI isn't enough in a strongly typed language like Haskell, so we need to add a fixpoint combinator (=====):" 05:04:13 oh 05:04:21 when 05:04:29 oh 05:04:32 oh yeah that's why i find Kфθ interesting 05:04:50 Haskell has K = const, ф = on, and θ = fix 05:05:13 (although I think on is inside some module and not there by default) 05:05:44 I recall making S from on, const, id, (.), and flip, but not from on, const, and fix 05:06:39 If you can make S with whatever those are then I think KфΘ might be complete as a basis and (Turing-)complete 05:07:08 yeah probably 05:07:14 id is I, (.) is B, and flip is C 05:07:15 wouldn't It definitively be? S and K? or am I lacking context 05:07:41 so if you can make I, B, and C using just ф, K, and θ, that leads straight to S 05:08:11 yayimheretoo: we haven't bridged the gap between KфΘ and KфIBC yet 05:08:25 Working on finding I right now 05:08:44 ah ok 05:08:45 KaleidoscopeFive: if you find a linear combinator that moves the 1st argument to be the 4th, youd get an S combinator by using it in the incomplete starling 05:08:55 Interesting 05:09:32 wait no on is psi, not phi 05:09:43 but with ф it's even easier since фI is literally just S 05:09:44 btw 05:09:52 Holy crap you're right 05:09:55 PkmnQ: S' actually 05:09:58 I is the last combinator I need 05:10:07 de67_: i don't see how 05:10:17 фIxyz = I(xz)(yz) = xz(yz), right 05:10:32 Yea 05:11:12 oh wait 05:11:20 ye 05:11:25 i was thinking of smth else 05:11:39 Unfortunately I threw away my brute-forcer 05:12:08 I probably should've just commented it out instead of outright deleting it 05:12:13 lol 05:12:16 yea 05:12:21 save stuff guys! 05:12:57 that's why i created a junkdrawer folder for my esofish implementation 05:12:58 (For context, I tried to brute-force a Kestrel expression for Dimethylmercury Candidate 5 and it couldn't find a length 11 expression and length 13 would take too much time so I decided to throw away the thing since it could only find relatively trivial expressions like the one for I) 05:13:03 the 8 interpreter's currently sitting inside it 05:13:23 lemme try KӨx 05:13:29 oh wait 05:13:31 it doesnt work 05:13:38 That just chooses theta 05:13:42 ye 05:13:55 i was thinking of smth else 05:15:19 i'll be honest i'm just ignoring Ө in my search for I 05:16:23 I wonder though if фΘ is capable of universal computation (if you throw away the garbage like Crazy J) 05:17:30 KaleidoscopeFive: Good thing Blashyrkh has an open-source IJX enumerator for times like these 05:17:54 hm 05:18:07 is PsiK' complete? 05:20:23 I think I should find the M combinator instead of trying to find I directly because M(Kx) = Kx(Kx) = I and I can use some cheap Phi tricks to get the combinators into that position 05:20:34 de67_: no clue! 05:21:07 de67_: if you want to find out i suggest looking for B and C 05:21:15 ok 05:21:42 ф(KM)KKx = KM(Kx)(Kx) = M(Kx) = Kx(Kx) = x 05:21:52 I = ф(KM)KK 05:22:08 wow 05:22:15 congratulatio 05:22:21 you made a complete basis 05:22:24 Now all I need to do is find M 05:22:41 why do you need M 05:22:48 To duplicate Kx 05:22:54 ф(KM)KKx = KM(Kx)(Kx) = M(Kx) = Kx(Kx) = x 05:23:19 ^^ Could replace this with I but we're trying to find I and that would be self-referential 05:23:54 now that you have an I 05:24:11 an M is trivial: фIII 05:24:25 de67_: that's kinda the thing tho, we don't have an I 05:24:31 oh 05:24:38 oh 05:24:40 I think I'm so close to finding I 05:24:41 i see 05:24:41 i think KaleidoscopeFive's idea is to use M to find an I 05:24:50 in other news, ффKK = B. is this useful? who knows 05:24:53 All thanks to Theta! 05:24:59 (i was trying to find a C) 05:25:14 (but a B is fine too I guess) 05:26:06 I found x(Kx) 05:26:15 If I can just get rid of the Kx then it'd be I 05:27:36 I think I found I 05:28:01 i found a weird combinator 05:28:05 it takes three arguments 05:28:07 Which basis 05:28:11 and only returns the second 05:28:15 KaleidoscopeFive: yours 05:28:18 cadidate 6 05:28:42 Ok 05:29:00 фKKxyz=y 05:29:23 that's equivalent to KK i think 05:29:50 i see 05:30:58 [[Draft:Dimethylmercury]] https://esolanging.wiki/mediawiki/index.php?diff=987 * AnalysisOfVariance * (+195) * /* Candidate 6 */ I found I! 05:31:15 Come to think of it I think my brute-forcer would've found that quite fast 05:31:46 It's a length 9 (based on character count in Unlambda representation) expression so my brute-forcer could've found that in 10 seconds 05:31:57 ф(KΘ)KK or ```ф`kΘkk is the expression btw 05:32:06 alright that explains how i didn't find it, it used Θ :P 05:32:16 maybe i should not have dismissed the usefulness of Θ 05:32:24 Never underestimate theta 05:32:56 alright but my one question is would this pass Haskell's type-checking 05:33:02 it doesn't matter if it does or doesn't 05:33:09 i just want to check for some reason 05:33:29 hm 05:33:36 that thing looks like the M combinator 05:34:06 oh wait nvm 05:34:09 i think ф :: (b -> c -> d) -> (a -> b) -> (a -> c) -> a -> d 05:34:41 it's already given that K :: a -> b -> a and Θ :: (a -> a) -> a 05:36:40 that'd mean ф (K Θ) :: (a -> e) -> (a -> f -> f) -> a -> f 05:37:28 yeah i think it passes Haskell's type checking 05:43:00 [[Draft:Dimethylmercury]] https://esolanging.wiki/mediawiki/index.php?diff=988 * AnalysisOfVariance * (+442) * /* Candidate 6 */ pack it up guys this is a complete basis 05:45:07 https://tio.run/##TYzBDoIwEETv/Yo57gY8qDcSvXvyA4yHAiU0IhKKAv58bbeaeJm83byZVrub6Trvh9aiKEAlNkdUMWqOSTpm@ceVsGCtYm3BijdmHALRiplB4WSlGrvIprg61eTZBLcBCQbPTc/B1lFN5u9xQJyn6tG7CUFmJJRU6q5tH0unM4jTFRqj7SeQFLOM8Z0azcuMzuCyzbHLsb@y9x8 <- this is the most cursed `id` i've ever seen 05:45:18 KaleidoscopeFive: congrats 05:45:54 you've somehow managed to find my new favorite basis 05:47:47 [[Draft:Dimethylmercury]] https://esolanging.wiki/mediawiki/index.php?diff=989 * AnalysisOfVariance * (-175) * use subsections 05:49:03 doesny candidate 1 have kestrel 05:49:52 Ohhh 05:49:53 de67_: which candidate 1 05:49:59 Dimethylmercury probably 05:50:03 PkmnQ: dimethylmercury 05:50:17 de67_: well it does but i don't see what that's supposed to do 05:50:29 it is in fact listed 05:50:38 The basis was purely affine lmao 05:50:55 PkmnQ: the page says that it doesnt have cencellative combinators (at the end where it mentions crazy j) 05:51:00 PkmnQ: I think it's because when referring to Crazy J, I said all candidates (except for 1) have the luxury of cancellatives 05:51:01 Yep 05:51:16 PsiK' is crazy frustrating, it always looks close but it isnt 05:51:37 also K' is literally just CK :P 05:51:41 you can halve the amount of combinators 05:52:11 PkmnQ: ? 05:52:24 in candidate 1's expression for K' 05:52:31 it uses K(CKK) when you only really need CK 05:52:35 oh 05:55:57 Phi is incredibly powerful, since if I have either K or K' then I can find I then since S = фI then K can be found very easily 05:56:36 I think it might be too powerful 05:57:53 i dodged a bullet by choosing psi 05:58:05 cuz if i chose phi itd be boring 05:58:08 yours isnt boring 05:58:13 cuz it uses K and Y 05:58:32 Y? 05:58:37 Ohh theta 05:58:43 ye 05:58:46 theta/y 05:58:57 K makes it a bit harder to find I 05:59:03 and Y is kinda crazy 05:59:21 Θ is really sigma 05:59:34 KaleidoscopeFive: we need sigma combinator now 05:59:36 oh wait 05:59:47